Collect
CURRENT
Lord our God,
help us to love you with all our hearts,
and to love all men as you love them.
FORTHCOMING
Grant us, Lord our God,
that we may honor you with all our mind,
and love everyone in truth of heart.
Prayer after Communion
CURRENT
Lord, you invigorate us with this help to our salvation.
By this eurcharist give the true faith continued growth
throughout the world.
FORTHCOMING
Nourished by these redeeming gifts,
we pray, O Lord,
that through this help to eternal salvation
true faith may ever increase.
"All people" would have been better than either "all men" or "everyone," but honestly… do the progressives who are so upset ever actually read this stuff?
I admit my sample size has been too small for scientific validity, but everything I've seen suggests that new ICEL (formed under the big bad conservative regime) is less sexist than the one put together by those groovy liberals back in the day (not surprising… good progressives would be appalled if they picked up a first edition Glory and Praise and saw how much we were singing about men and brothers….).
On the translation complaints front…. am I the only one who wants to start a campaign to restore the Capitalization Of Pronouns That Refer To The Divine?
I use capital pronouns as I prepare the school Mass L/W's and the parish general intentions.
That's a capital idea, Charles!
Are there capitalized pronouns in Latin?
Keep in mind that these texts are not primarily for reading–they are intended for oral proclamation. Do the people proclaiming them communicate the awe of God?
The caps might help in them communicate that awe.
Todd,
It's simple a personal discipline of mine, though Sam's point does address the way inwhich student and adult lectors might receive these texts.
And yes, I get the LA implication.
What I don't get is, why is this any of your business how I go about doing my job?
Your nosiness seems a bit condescending, in a Dana Carvey "Church Lady" sort of way.
C'mon, you don't have enough BIG PICTURE stuff to criticize? Really?
There might not be capitalized pronouns in Latin, but there are certainly chants of the ordinary in Latin. Why doesn't your parish sing them, Todd?
Anon-
I don't think that's fair.
1. Do you know for a fact what Todd programs at his Church?
2. Do we know what you program at your church? Oh, right- We couldn't, since you won't tell us who you are.
3. The whole comment was just a diagonal tangent from the (mostly unimportant) tangent on capitals, having no purpose but to needlesly insult someone.
Todd-
For the most part, Latin doesn't have pronouns.
Adam, thanks. I had a couple of years of Latin, so I do know that capitalized pronouns would be "additions" to the English versions of these prayers.
Admittedly, I tend to resist fads both musical, linguistic, and in fashions, and I'm not aware that the use of Caps in reference to God has much history to it.
You know, the condescension justs keeps on giving and giving. "I tend to resist fads….and I'm not aware that the use of Caps…has much history to it." So, my brother, the implication clearly is that despite the reality of an extent history of the use of Caps, you deign it a "fad," and are thus intellectually superior, so much so you don't address the insult or offense directly.
I wasn't raised in any church. I was received into the Church at 19. But prior to that, my memory of all personal pronouns in the Bibles that I did encounter in my childhood were capitalized. So, though we're empiracally even, you're still the superior intellect. Just because. And the fact that I've been doing this capitalization for years with the General Intercessions as a discipline (is that bad?) doesn't inform you so as not to imply I'm a liturgical sycophant.
Thanks for the fraternal correction, Todd. I'm sure you feel much better for it. And you wonder why….?
Charles,
Maybe. But I wasn't addressing your second post.
I had KJV's in my house from my mother's Baptist tradition, and I don't recall their pronouns being capitalized.
I did look up a few pieces on capitalization, and I just finished a book on linguistics (because I wanted more background on translation for my own peace of mind). In many languages, the trend for the past few centuries has been less capitalization, not more. In English (but not German) the long trend (of centuries) has been not to capitalize God-pronouns.
I see a modern trend to caps not only in God-pronouns, but also in holy things. So let me rephrase:
Capitalizing pronouns referring to God are one's own choice. Neither way is better or worse than the other. Using caps may be more reverent, but it is not traditional.
Capitalizing objects in English is archaic usage. I can understand the Eucharist, and the Church. I have less patience for Chalices, Priests, Ministers, Pastors, Bishops, Orthodoxy (when referring to uber-Catholics), and the like.
And no, I don't wonder why. I largely know why.
Goodness….
I thought my "New ICEL is more liberal than old ICEL" would get a lot more interest than my off-hand about capitalization.
You never know what'll strike a nerve around here.
Anywho….
It is absolutely correct that the KJV and other early English Bibles did not capitalize Divine Pronouns. In the history of English, it IS relatively recent, but not so recent as to be a "fad."
I would not in any case argue that it is "incorrect" to not do so.
I wish that it was "correct" to do so, and (as it is apparently up to individual preference whether or not to do so) I will continue to champion "Reverential Caps" whenever possible, and utilize them in my own writing and editing.
Also, relating this to the Robustness Principle…
I can accept texts with no problem which do not capitalize divine pronouns. But, knowing that there are those out there who have a strong preference for them, and in fact may be offended by their omission (because they feel doing so is an insult to Him Who the feel should be capitalized), why wouldn't I take the tiniest bit of trouble to depress the shift key for a fraction of a second while typing?